Author Topic: "Proof of Transaction" consensus debate - 10 million TAU 12 months  (Read 2625 times)

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Online Kriptolab

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Re: "Proof of Transaction" consensus debate - 10 million TAU 12 months
« Reply #105 on: December 30, 2018, 02:48:48 PM »
allow me to response questions raised together, we have much progress and change in past week in the course to understand POT.
1. for expiration, BTC and ETH does not support that in protocol, but NXT does. We inherit from NXT to set it 12 hours, 144 blocks. For sender to verify true expiration, mathmatically you need to wait 288 blocks, 24 hours; when expiration time past mutable range twice. Mutable range is 144 blocks in TAU.
2. btc header hashing with nounce to generate high difficulty is used in BTC, however, TAU header hashing is for purpose of verifying highest difficulty chain, not generate difficulty. TAU difficulty is generated through public key signature continuously through transparent forging process. this is an complex process, not to go full description here, please see white paper. in short, we use header hashing and public key signature to both verify and generate difficulty to satisfy byzantine general.
3. using TPS to compare main-net is not scientific. main net priority is decentralized consensus. There are much easier way to scale TPS such as lightning network, TAU Pay solution, side chain and dex. in the other note, scarcity on main net space will make mining valuable thing to do.
4. 10 billion TAU coins is created in genesis block. 82% of them will distribute via faucet and bounty to community. 18% will be reward to foundation and investment into tau community startup. It is a big burden to distribute these coins fairly and provide a basic service to beginner to get coins. TAU community just need to trust foundation to stay focus on this.
Thanks very much iMorpheus for the responses, these explanations are all fine with me, keep the good work
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Re: "Proof of Transaction" consensus debate - 10 million TAU 12 months
« Reply #105 on: December 30, 2018, 02:48:48 PM »

Offline Menma

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Re: "Proof of Transaction" consensus debate - 10 million TAU 12 months
« Reply #106 on: December 31, 2018, 02:12:06 PM »
The current situation which is going on in testnet regarding miners am sure won't have negative effects on  mainnet. The so called abusive transactions as you named them are not affecting the network but rather the miners themselves. Why?

First of all, the mining powers cultivated during testnet won't be transferred to mainnet. "...The mobile mining will restart the power, for previous owned power, we plan to give one time reward according to the power number. we are developing new understanding of POT nature. On main net, it is more like digital asset now to focusing on decentralization. Restart mining weight is most easier for new consensus. yes lots to change here" iMorpheus stated. This was a conversation on discord channel, you can retrieve it over there under #Mining support channel to get more info.

The second thing is that, all the tx on TAU network cost us fees. No tx which will be freely executed and no 0 tx that will be possible. Take an example from myself, due to the tx I have accumulated in the need of raising the harvest power, the tx fee is now is high as 0.00393697 TAU. Let's do a simple maths here.

When I successful make 100,000 tx per day and each cost 0.00393697 TAU (100,000 x 0.00393697), I will incur to pay 393.697 TAU as tx fees still I can only mine 15-25 TAU per day (mind you, I will need to have more power thus, I will need to make more tx as well). Hence, for now TAU doesn't have a value as we are doing internal test, imagine we are in mainnet with same scene and each TAU cost 1$, (393.697 TAU x 1$ = 393.697$) and as return you get 15-25 TAU as mining reward (same as 15-25$), will you continue with this? I will surely don't abusive as it's more costing me rather than getting favour. I will advice making only meaningful tx.

The last thing is regarding the pre-mined coins, Am sure TAU network didn't and won't have such a thing. Consider the answer from one of the team members "the Genesis block of mainnet will contain the final balances from testnet" xlodx stated. (also via discord channel conversation.)

That's from my understanding and I hope others esp Sir iMorpheus will give us the more detailed explanations regarding the issues raised.

Let's make your MATH a reality.
First, you cannot make 100k transactions on main net in a day.
 
1 block = 5mins
60mins  = 12 blocks
1 day   = 288 blocks
1 day   = 14,400 transactions only.

Second, if we divide transaction fee , as reward, equally to the number of transactions a miner has, you'll get the same amount you spent.

10 miners = 1,440 transactions each
1,440 tx = 5.65 TAUcoins spent ( multiplied by 0.00393 as average)
Each mobile miner will spend around 6 TAUcoin as txs fee for 1,440 transactions and REWARD/MINE the same amount.
Except of course as time goes by coz not everyone will do mobile mining.

So the real question is, why is it that in pc mining, the txs spent is not equivalent to the reward being mined? This I am confused about.

A 100k power mining 15-25 TAUcoin per day is quite fishy. A 1M mining power will get 150-250 TAU daily. A 10M self power would eventually mine about 1500-2500 TAUcoins per day.  We only have 3M transactions and that would give us a total of 6m power. A 6M mining power in total would mine 900-1500 TAUcoins daily.

You know what's funny? TAUcoin has 420M coins. And that will take ( 420M divided by 1500 TAU mined daily) roughly 280,000 days to mine. Not only that, 3M transactions would only generate 3M taucoins also, if tx fee was 1TAucoin each.  ;D ;D ;D

Pls do correct me if I was wrong with my computation.  Nonetheless, it would seem just logical for me to think that the tx spent will be the rewards received.

Holla Amigos Amigas!!!
Congrats TAUcoin for 2019!!! Love love love..

Online Kriptolab

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Re: "Proof of Transaction" consensus debate - 10 million TAU 12 months
« Reply #107 on: January 01, 2019, 11:44:27 AM »
Let's make your MATH a reality.
First, you cannot make 100k transactions on main net in a day.
 
1 block = 5mins
60mins  = 12 blocks
1 day   = 288 blocks
1 day   = 14,400 transactions only.

Second, if we divide transaction fee , as reward, equally to the number of transactions a miner has, you'll get the same amount you spent.

10 miners = 1,440 transactions each
1,440 tx = 5.65 TAUcoins spent ( multiplied by 0.00393 as average)
Each mobile miner will spend around 6 TAUcoin as txs fee for 1,440 transactions and REWARD/MINE the same amount.
Except of course as time goes by coz not everyone will do mobile mining.

So the real question is, why is it that in pc mining, the txs spent is not equivalent to the reward being mined? This I am confused about.

A 100k power mining 15-25 TAUcoin per day is quite fishy. A 1M mining power will get 150-250 TAU daily. A 10M self power would eventually mine about 1500-2500 TAUcoins per day.  We only have 3M transactions and that would give us a total of 6m power. A 6M mining power in total would mine 900-1500 TAUcoins daily.

You know what's funny? TAUcoin has 420M coins. And that will take ( 420M divided by 1500 TAU mined daily) roughly 280,000 days to mine. Not only that, 3M transactions would only generate 3M taucoins also, if tx fee was 1TAucoin each.  ;D ;D ;D

Pls do correct me if I was wrong with my computation.  Nonetheless, it would seem just logical for me to think that the tx spent will be the rewards received.

Holla Amigos Amigas!!!
Congrats TAUcoin for 2019!!! Love love love..
It's sure and I know that on mainnet its not possible, also, don't be scared with my previous maths! I can get 15-20 tau per day but for full miner may get more than that, mind you the maths I did based on my own finding, its not a base of the reality. But thanks you have shown us the reality
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Offline zityx23

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Re: "Proof of Transaction" consensus debate - 10 million TAU 12 months
« Reply #108 on: January 01, 2019, 04:32:01 PM »
Quite an astounding figure!!! Even so, main net is the real thing and when it arrives, only then will our speculation be surprised. TAU mWallet and Tau Pay will be an amazing combination for this. Considering every region has its own unique business to connect tau with, it will give amounts of rewards to mobile miners, which in turn will also welcome more miners in the future. These kinds of interaction and interconnection is very rare in other currencies. I'm so glad I'm an early bird on this project.

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Offline Mr. Wolf

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Re: "Proof of Transaction" consensus debate - 10 million TAU 12 months
« Reply #109 on: January 02, 2019, 06:27:35 AM »
https://medium.com/@davidwu_30530/new-idea-the-total-consensus-strength-tcs-among-pow-pos-and-pot-f24c7949b93f

TOTAL CONSENSUS STRENGTH between POW, POS and POT

It is quite clever and in some ways more facetious to define stability of a blockchain or a consensus by  means of miners and average mining power. Many, in my opinion, in the crypto space will debate just on the definition alone but granting that there is no other way to measure consensus strength, let me try to engage myself with, and I will follow through with the wonderful article our beloved Founder wrote.

POW, though permission-less, requires miners for a greater computational power to solve the equation and get the reward. As the puzzle becomes harder each block difficulty adjustment, it is necessary for low-budget-miners to drop their tool and stop the mining process. This enables the powerful, the rich and the prominent to stay on the market and "centralize" the whole mining system. One click and it will give them power to attack, most likely in the far future, when an antminer will mine only 1 satoshi per year.   ;D ;D ;D

By definition, POW will have a constant or fixed amount of consensus strength. As computational power immensely increases over time, a decrease in miners is conspicuous as the amount of mining power is inversely proportional to the number of possible miners in the market.  ;)

POS, though permission-less and more energy efficient than POW, requires  miners to compete on holdings of the coins to get the reward. It promotes stagnancy of the coins whether it has a real-world use case or not. Sad thing is, a greedy miner will just buy and keep on buying coins sold in order to gain more power from mining. And, as with POW, the low-budget miners will be forced to sell their coins for profit and stop mining.

By definition, POS will also have a fixed amount of consensus strength.  ;)

POT, on the other hand, does not require miners a powerful machine to mine, great energy to support mining and competition on holdings of coins to get the reward. Rather, miners will compete through the number of transactions in the blockchain. Thinking long in the future, since mining will be as easy as eating a pie, anyone and everyone will be encouraged to mine thus further increasing the strength of the consensus.

By definition, POT wins the race over POW and POS when it comes to Total Consensus Strength.   ;)
« Last Edit: January 04, 2019, 02:49:20 AM by Mr. Wolf »
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Offline Menma

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Re: "Proof of Transaction" consensus debate - 10 million TAU 12 months
« Reply #110 on: January 03, 2019, 08:32:28 AM »
https://medium.com/@davidwu_30530/proof-of-transaction-to-fight-51-attack-the-older-the-more-secure-chain-is-ee1caabcffb9

TOTAL CONSENSUS STRENGTH between POW, POS and POT

It is quite clever and in some ways more facetious to define stability of a blockchain or a consensus by  means of miners and average mining power. Many, in my opinion, in the crypto space will debate just on the definition alone but granting that there is no other way to measure consensus strength, let me try to engage myself with, and I will follow through with the wonderful article our beloved Founder wrote.

POW, though permission-less, requires miners for a greater computational power to solve the equation and get the reward. As the puzzle becomes harder each block difficulty adjustment, it is necessary for low-budget-miners to drop their tool and stop the mining process. This enables the powerful, the rich and the prominent to stay on the market and "centralize" the whole mining system. One click and it will give them power to attack, most likely in the far future, when an antminer will mine only 1 satoshi per year.   ;D ;D ;D

By definition, POW will have a constant or fixed amount of consensus strength. As computational power immensely increases over time, a decrease in miners is conspicuous as the amount of mining power is inversely proportional to the number of possible miners in the market.  ;)

POS, though permission-less and more energy efficient than POW, requires  miners to compete on holdings of the coins to get the reward. It promotes stagnancy of the coins whether it has a real-world use case or not. Sad thing is, a greedy miner will just buy and keep on buying coins sold in order to gain more power from mining. And, as with POW, the low-budget miners will be forced to sell their coins for profit and stop mining.

By definition, POS will also have a fixed amount of consensus strength.  ;)

POT, on the other hand, does not require miners a powerful machine to mine, great energy to support mining and competition on holdings of coins to get the reward. Rather, miners will compete through the number of transactions in the blockchain. Thinking long in the future, since mining will be as easy as eating a pie, anyone and everyone will be encouraged to mine thus further increasing the strength of the consensus.

By definition, POT wins the race over POW and POS when it comes to Total Consensus Strength.   ;)

I would like to use this reading and have to agree to most of it. There could be more ways to define Total Consensus Strength but since you didn't introduce a few, I will not give my opinion regarding that as well.  Haha Let me ride with your story and add a little seasoning to it.

TOTAL CONSENSUS STRENGTH between POW, POS and POT

Even if most of the stated information above is true, it still wouldn't express a total superiority of POT over POW and POS when it comes to TCS. Though miners and mining power is our discussion, there must be something deeper when we talk about this two areas in blockchain. If you haven't realized yet, mining power is directly related and being affected by the miners themselves. And so the determinants of these two factors lies behind all of it. What could it be? It is the value of a coin. How is it going to be used in the blockchain economy. How is it going to change the way we look at currency itself. So value is oftentimes intertwined with price and vice versa. We'll not talk about the deeper difference of these two but a basic info will do.

Price is what you pay for a coin. Value is what the dealer would pay you to buy the coin. It could be a product or a service or just anything in the internet and/or physical world. Hope that is simple as it sounds.

SO a miner would have in mind why would he be mining for this coins and what future profits will he get from it.

In POW, people will mine because, first, of its limited supply and second of its harder-to-mine-in-the-future feature. Bitcoin as an example. Limited supply COULD mean increase in price in the future thus a POW miner would mine a POW coin for future profit. If such definition as stated by the Founder is necessary to define TCS, POW will definitely be going upwards gradually but consistently as time goes by.

POS miners would almost do the same as POW miners. Treating POS coins as having the same value as POW coins, miners will then begin to realize that the longer they mine, the more competition they will have, thus reducing their chance to get the reward and will require themselves to buy another set of coins to strengthen their holdings/mining power. Eventually, POS miners will shift to a NEW COIN with LESSER difficulty due to unstable profit in the OLDER coin. Thus, TCS in a certain POS coin will gradually decrease over time. No matter how much the value of a coin is.

POT. Now this is exciting! Why? Because we don't have any date yet! Hahah All we have are speculation based on theories and beta-tests. With my high-grade intuition, in POT, such as Taucoin as the first (I think),  will produce more and more miners as the days go by. And because the distribution is linear and equal among transactors and adaptable to any person in Planet Earth,  hyperinflation is very minimal or near zero, therefore, mass adoption is super fast. Until all coins are mined, the TCS of POT will increase dramatically. Hooray!!! But of course, unless there is no use of the coin, people will stop mining it therefore TCS will drop.

« Last Edit: January 03, 2019, 09:36:19 AM by Menma »

Offline niccanebalasca

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Re: "Proof of Transaction" consensus debate - 10 million TAU 12 months
« Reply #111 on: January 04, 2019, 11:15:51 PM »
Total Consensus strength is really a new idea and a new term. Although I tried to look for meaning to this in the internet, I can't find a pick and a reliable source. Therefore I'll stick to the given definition where it is easier to give inputs.
 
Before anything else, I would like to give questions

1. How do we compute for the number of miners? Do we count by the # of people? # of machines? What extent exactly?
   In POW, there are many different kinds of machine to choose from. So dependeing on what one use, numbers vary.
   Another thing is that there are many people who group together to form a company/community focused on mining. How do we count
   miners then,, by individual or as a group?
   So an individual may hold 1000 ASIC wares to mine whereas another "group", composed of 20 people also has 1000 ASIC units for
   mining. How many miners would that be? 2 or 21?

   Same goes for POS. IF anyone is familiar with the word "corpo" from the word "corporations", like in the example above, people might
   choose to group themselves
   together to garner the least amount of coins needed or the most # of coins possible to mine or control the reward system.

   In POT, it is very obvious that "every wallet is a miner" therefore miners will not choose to group but mine on their own therefore increasing the # of miners
   EXPONENTIALLY.

2. Is there a definitive and equal comparison of a mining power from POW, POS and POT? DO they have the same measure of quantity? 


These two questions above are important to know so that I can provide details of my share here.
For the meanwhile, I will deduce my comprehension by this few facts.

It would be bias for POT to conclude that Total Consensus Strength will be determined by the number of miners multiplied by the # of mining power. For one reason, that is,
POT will generate more individual miners than POW and POS combined. So the question now stands as to "if POT will serve as a global use to render its use case" so that miners will continue to mine these coins

Offline imorpheus

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Re: "Proof of Transaction" consensus debate - 10 million TAU 12 months
« Reply #112 on: January 06, 2019, 07:13:09 AM »
On the speed of main net, we are not trying to compete to other projects, it is design selection focus and tradeoff decision. To achieve decentralization without censorship as primary goal, there is limitation on the speed of the ledger. TAUcoin choose to reduce the speed, and bet on future mobile network will support us fork up to higher speed upon community agreement. During the meantime, TAU PAY will serve as backup option to instant payment.
TCS, total consensus strength, is a concept we use to understand POT, and what POT will really bring us differently from POW and POS, and why these differences are important. in nutshell, assume POT is same power as BTC today, we will found BTC strength is based on an arm race of real world power which is always up and down. but TAU will be stable and upward based on historical transaction numbers.
In terms of how to compute miners and power between POTPOWPOS, it is very hard to compare in detail quantity now. I will describe POT has best chances to recruit higher miners participation without working and risking(staking), isn't this fun?
« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 07:27:28 AM by imorpheus »
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Offline Menma

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Re: "Proof of Transaction" consensus debate - 10 million TAU 12 months
« Reply #113 on: January 07, 2019, 05:20:18 AM »
On the speed of main net, we are not trying to compete to other projects, it is design selection focus and tradeoff decision. To achieve decentralization without censorship as primary goal, there is limitation on the speed of the ledger. TAUcoin choose to reduce the speed, and bet on future mobile network will support us fork up to higher speed upon community agreement. During the meantime, TAU PAY will serve as backup option to instant payment.
TCS, total consensus strength, is a concept we use to understand POT, and what POT will really bring us differently from POW and POS, and why these differences are important. in nutshell, assume POT is same power as BTC today, we will found BTC strength is based on an arm race of real world power which is always up and down. but TAU will be stable and upward based on historical transaction numbers.
In terms of how to compute miners and power between POTPOWPOS, it is very hard to compare in detail quantity now. I will describe POT has best chances to recruit higher miners participation without working and risking(staking), isn't this fun?

I do very well agree. The lower the entry barrier for mining is, the more miners will come. and the more miners there are, faster adoption is easy. With equal distribution of miners around the world, price manipulation is very hard and it will give stability to its price. This, my opinion. 

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Re: "Proof of Transaction" consensus debate - 10 million TAU 12 months
« Reply #114 on: January 09, 2019, 03:14:37 AM »
I'm thinking of the future.
I think mobile mining will consume 2GB of space after 4 years of mining.
It will be a burden for a 4GB ram phone

Offline Mr. Wolf

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Re: "Proof of Transaction" consensus debate - 10 million TAU 12 months
« Reply #115 on: January 10, 2019, 11:15:48 AM »
On the speed of main net, we are not trying to compete to other projects, it is design selection focus and tradeoff decision. To achieve decentralization without censorship as primary goal, there is limitation on the speed of the ledger. TAUcoin choose to reduce the speed, and bet on future mobile network will support us fork up to higher speed upon community agreement. During the meantime, TAU PAY will serve as backup option to instant payment.
TCS, total consensus strength, is a concept we use to understand POT, and what POT will really bring us differently from POW and POS, and why these differences are important. in nutshell, assume POT is same power as BTC today, we will found BTC strength is based on an arm race of real world power which is always up and down. but TAU will be stable and upward based on historical transaction numbers.
In terms of how to compute miners and power between POTPOWPOS, it is very hard to compare in detail quantity now. I will describe POT has best chances to recruit higher miners participation without working and risking(staking), isn't this fun?

I see. While others are competing with sheer power and speed of transaction, TAU is more directed towards total decentralization. An agency we need so much these days. Stability is a good thing to the network as it also brings strength altogether to the blockchain.

I am very excited for the main net. We can have fair and easy and fun mining at last. We hope all the best for the developers.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2019, 04:28:47 AM by Mr. Wolf »
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Offline imorpheus

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Re: "Proof of Transaction" consensus debate - 10 million TAU 12 months
« Reply #116 on: January 12, 2019, 10:06:24 PM »
After 4 years, 5G is there and phone will be more powerful. 2GB is on storage not on memory. so I believe TAU mining will be still little impact on a phone. in 4 years, 1TB storage phone will be standard, we only ask for couple GB.

Agree with Mr. wolf, we rebrand TAU to "TRUE ASSET UNIT", decentralized and mobile. this is very unique. None of current coins is truly on mobile mining.
thanks Menma for join.
We spend 2 days on solving "mobile mining" behind firewall NAT. All crypto mining i see today require a real ip address, however all cell phones does not have a real IP, they are using NAT public IP in each connection. we need to adopt UDP hole punching to allow cell phone community with each other for consensus.
So our major innovation includes behind NAT p2p networking and POT block design.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2019, 10:13:10 PM by imorpheus »
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Re: "Proof of Transaction" consensus debate - 10 million TAU 12 months
« Reply #117 on: January 12, 2019, 10:51:20 PM »
In my knowledge, all coin mining requires public IP address for nodes to communicate with each others on IP network, that is Internet. It is required for BTC, ETC, EOS and all as I know. On today’s Internet, only server has public IP, and blockchain network consensus is really built on “server to server”. You wallet is a client connecting to one of those servers, therefore wallet is not decentralized neither have the full picture of the pubic ledger to running by itself.
Clearly, good wallet shall run on mobile phones. However, mobile phone does not have “real IP address” due to IPv4 network is not able to provide that many IP addresses. IPv6 needs many years to come, so that the mobile industry using NAT, network address translation, to make many phones sharing one public IP and giving cell phone internal IP address behind firewall. Without IP address, mobile phone can only be client and not able to be a full mining node on public internet. Different cell phones behind firewall need centralized server to communicate to each other such as you see in whatsup and wechat.
TAUcoin is solving this industry bottleneck, to build true “client to client, server-less” networking allow blockchain to be maintained on mobile phone systems without any super node software. Every wallet is an full node running on mobile phone behind NAT firewall using internal IP address. So that we makes “server”, “client” and “wallet” all the same to achieve true decentalizaton.
How are we going to do that? Please stay tuned on TAU mainnet.
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Re: "Proof of Transaction" consensus debate - 10 million TAU 12 months
« Reply #118 on: January 14, 2019, 10:39:35 AM »
While networks today are using NAT because of security, it is more complicated than we thought. Having a single global IP address is very complicated especially when connecting to P2P networks. Incoming packets may cause confusion as to which client it is directed to and may cause for the packets to be dropped or unaccepted. While UDP hole punching is the most common way to circumnavigate behind NAT, it certainly needs a third party host to verify packets or to establish connections between the clients. Some says it is possible to do that without a third party host but I guess it hasn't been tested and proven yet.

All in all, POT, mobile mining and circumventing NAT with UDP hole punching is really a breakthrough in the blockchain tech, something that is very unique to TAU. We do hope for it to progress more and succeed to create an ideal cryptocurrency.
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Offline Menma

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Re: "Proof of Transaction" consensus debate - 10 million TAU 12 months
« Reply #119 on: January 15, 2019, 06:51:01 AM »
After 4 years, 5G is there and phone will be more powerful. 2GB is on storage not on memory. so I believe TAU mining will be still little impact on a phone. in 4 years, 1TB storage phone will be standard, we only ask for couple GB.

Agree with Mr. wolf, we rebrand TAU to "TRUE ASSET UNIT", decentralized and mobile. this is very unique. None of current coins is truly on mobile mining.
thanks Menma for join.
We spend 2 days on solving "mobile mining" behind firewall NAT. All crypto mining i see today require a real ip address, however all cell phones does not have a real IP, they are using NAT public IP in each connection. we need to adopt UDP hole punching to allow cell phone community with each other for consensus.
So our major innovation includes behind NAT p2p networking and POT block design.

This got me to thinking. Here's my question and probably my suggestion altogether.

1. POT is a little less than POW (probably, something like a divided POW) or a mini version of POW. If any small memory space is needed to mine TAU, as such in POT, then probably 10years, or 20 years from now it would then require powerful mobile phones to minE, that is if TAU is still being used at that time. Memory space is still memory space, 
2. Remind me if I'm mistaken about this. How can "new" miners be sure that they can still compete in mining given that previous miners has already accumulated much transactions in advance? Is there a reset function of records of transactions or like a randomized version of who will be able to get the "harvest"?
3. (Future ) Is it possible to mine TAU without the internet? (looks absurd. ) If not then is it possible to do a transaction without internet connection?

Thank you in advance for answers and clarifications.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2019, 06:56:09 AM by Menma »