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Author Topic: "Proof of Transaction" consensus debate - 10 million TAU 12 months  (Read 12275 times)

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Offline imorpheus

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Re: "Proof of Transaction" consensus debate - 10 million TAU 12 months
« Reply #30 about: November 04, 2018, 07:52:20 PM »
Simple functions spec for new mobile mining.
https://link.medium.com/QZNxl1NUzR
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Re: "Proof of Transaction" consensus debate - 10 million TAU 12 months
« Reply #30 about: November 04, 2018, 07:52:20 PM »

Offline imorpheus

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Re: "Proof of Transaction" consensus debate - 10 million TAU 12 months
« Reply #31 about: November 05, 2018, 12:42:41 AM »
Discussion on checkpoint technology.
To prevent long range attack, which is someone rebuilding blockchain from very early time to make it look like a real chain to confuse new miners, the current POT whitepaper suggests using checkpoint to make certain portion of blockchain permanent.
My worry is that if checkpoint is adopted as consensus, there will be lots hard fork to be generated because the miner made wrong choise can not come back. Blockchain itself can not prove it is genuine or or. Maybe something like Yelp service can give ranking as what fork has best chances to be real one. This situation is hard to happen in POW, but possible in both POS and POT. POT is harder due to you do need to accumulate one year transactions, but in POS you can quickly move the coins to do that.
Love to hear feedback on checkpoint thinking.
iMorpheus
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Offline Krowbar13

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Re: "Proof of Transaction" consensus debate - 10 million TAU 12 months
« Reply #32 about: November 05, 2018, 06:06:11 PM »
I think it would be good if you add the TAU-X feature to the Taunopoly game. so everyone can play in the game even those who don't have TAU, they can exchange other currencies to TAU to play in the game

Offline imorpheus

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Re: "Proof of Transaction" consensus debate - 10 million TAU 12 months
« Reply #33 about: November 06, 2018, 07:13:58 PM »
Let me explain more on long range attack. Hackers with initial high number of coins, such as foundation or founders, can start from very beginning of blockchain to rebuild the entire chain using high stack (in POS) or high transaction records (in POT). POW does not have this problem, because of the rebuild entire chain require spend energy twice. Checkpoint is a consensus proposal that once chain grows cerain length, it is considered finality, no one can change anything, unless it is an complete hard fork which require new sets of miners to follow. I believe checkpoint needs to be implemented in tau.
Another idea to discuss today, shall we make time window to be entire history rather than one year.
Entire history with checkpoint will make 51% attack very hard to acheive. Assume tau chain has run one year, 51% attack hackers need to run one year as well to form 51%. If we make it entire history, the longer the chain grow, the harder it is.  Love to know your ideas.
iMorpheus
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Offline Kriptolab

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Re: "Proof of Transaction" consensus debate - 10 million TAU 12 months
« Reply #34 about: November 09, 2018, 11:51:56 AM »
Let me explain more on long range attack. Hackers with initial high number of coins, such as foundation or founders, can start from very beginning of blockchain to rebuild the entire chain using high stack (in POS) or high transaction records (in POT). POW does not have this problem, because of the rebuild entire chain require spend energy twice. Checkpoint is a consensus proposal that once chain grows cerain length, it is considered finality, no one can change anything, unless it is an complete hard fork which require new sets of miners to follow. I believe checkpoint needs to be implemented in tau.
Another idea to discuss today, shall we make time window to be entire history rather than one year.
Entire history with checkpoint will make 51% attack very hard to acheive. Assume tau chain has run one year, 51% attack hackers need to run one year as well to form 51%. If we make it entire history, the longer the chain grow, the harder it is.  Love to know your ideas.
It’s not ppssible to tell if an individual address or transaction is ether valid, belongs to an attacker, or is part of a chain. To handle this, now, checkpoint technology have been invented.

Conceptually, checkpoints are hard coded into the typical client. Tthis typical client will accept all transactions and report to the checkpoint as true/valid and irreversible. If anyone tries to fork the blockchain starting from a block before the checkpoint, the client will not accept the fork. This makes those blocks "set in stone".

I appreciate your ideas iMorpheus , implementing this technology is very needful for security purpose
« Last Edit: November 09, 2018, 11:59:16 AM by Kriptolab »
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Offline imorpheus

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Re: "Proof of Transaction" consensus debate - 10 million TAU 12 months
« Reply #35 about: November 11, 2018, 02:18:53 AM »
... continue the transaction spam discussion...
in email work, spam is popular because of the cost of sending email is close to zero. in TAU network, the cost of spam transaction is not cost zero, that require transaction fee satisfying miners. making lots of transaction increasing mining power is viewed as action to invest into tau future.
what is your idea?
iMorpheus
TAU - True Asset Unit - Mobile and Decentral

Offline Muxa84

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Re: "Proof of Transaction" consensus debate - 10 million TAU 12 months
« Reply #36 about: November 12, 2018, 06:28:46 AM »
... continue the transaction spam discussion...
in email work, spam is popular because of the cost of sending email is close to zero. in TAU network, the cost of spam transaction is not cost zero, that require transaction fee satisfying miners. making lots of transaction increasing mining power is viewed as action to invest into tau future.
what is your idea?
switching between the leaders of the clubs has such a problem. you can add a time interval during which you can change the leader. limit it to for example 12 or 24 hours. this reduces the number of empty transactions.

Offline imorpheus

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Re: "Proof of Transaction" consensus debate - 10 million TAU 12 months
« Reply #37 about: November 12, 2018, 02:52:53 PM »
the club design will make short-range attack easier to implement, attackers can easily form different clubs to win the producer rights. we no longer do the club, only single address mining.
iMorpheus
TAU - True Asset Unit - Mobile and Decentral

Offline Kriptolab

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Re: "Proof of Transaction" consensus debate - 10 million TAU 12 months
« Reply #38 about: November 13, 2018, 11:10:25 AM »
... continue the transaction spam discussion...
in email work, spam is popular because of the cost of sending email is close to zero. in TAU network, the cost of spam transaction is not cost zero, that require transaction fee satisfying miners. making lots of transaction increasing mining power is viewed as action to invest into tau future.
what is your idea?
From transaction point of view, spam/spevulative transactions are always more costly to the spammer than not spamming, this is because it will force him to pay fee for every transaction he will attempt to make. Someone who is intentionally spamming the network will have to burn TAUcoins constantly to do so, and so will eventually be forced to stop. This is god invention from Proof of Transaction hence, the perfect preventive measure gains for-profits as well as for-control (as stated from the wp)
« Last Edit: November 13, 2018, 11:12:30 AM by Kriptolab »
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Offline Muxa84

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Re: "Proof of Transaction" consensus debate - 10 million TAU 12 months
« Reply #39 about: November 15, 2018, 12:54:05 AM »
If there is spam, then there should be anti-spam. You can implement an internal anti-spam system based on the time interval or the number of transactions during the block.

Offline Kriptolab

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Re: "Proof of Transaction" consensus debate - 10 million TAU 12 months
« Reply #40 about: November 16, 2018, 07:57:59 AM »
If there is spam, then there should be anti-spam. You can implement an internal anti-spam system based on the time interval or the number of transactions during the block.
Agreed with you bro, that would help to combat spammers ans speculators
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Offline Kriptolab

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Re: "Proof of Transaction" consensus debate - 10 million TAU 12 months
« Reply #41 about: November 16, 2018, 01:59:16 PM »
the club design will make short-range attack easier to implement, attackers can easily form different clubs to win the producer rights. we no longer do the club, only single address mining.
Yes, this best comply with TAU's business based model address model with balance
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Offline Kriptolab

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Re: "Proof of Transaction" consensus debate - 10 million TAU 12 months
« Reply #42 about: November 16, 2018, 02:04:16 PM »
Quote from iMorpheus (BTT)
"so why not just using smart contract in side chain? shall tau main net settlement layer support smart contract at all? UTXO is not able to support Turing complete smart contract. TAU is using utxo now."

****************

But the TAU white paper v0.4 state that

"In the development of TAU, we faced a choice
between UTXO and account based model. The
former is better for privacy and data compression. The latter is simpler and more efficient in some application, including. TAUís club wiring reward transaction. We decided to use an address based
model with balance. It is an approach that keeps
privacy and conveniently supports club wiring
transactions. The burden of calculation and record keeping shifts to the full nodes, which we believe is
small. However, a better solution is possible, which lowers requirement for a full node."


My concerns:
📌 we need to stick or change the white paper to suit the need of the business model that might be in action.
📌 smart contracts have their flaws and thanks that's my fellow debaters have pinpointed them out. Of-course, researchers discovered several smart contract vulnerabilities which put millions of dollars at risk. This is worrisome news, although there is a positive side to it as well.
📌 we used to do some daily quizzes earlier, one of the question was  "Which is the TAUís accounting model used?"[b[/] And the Answer was "TAU uses address based model with balance." Here now the question comes, should we forget this because we removed clubs on mining? Or the other way round but am not getting it. If we removed this model then am still not clear which model does TAU now using
📌if we are now using UTOX while the WP state the "address based
model with balance"
am a bit confused may be I need more help to understand this.
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Offline imorpheus

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Re: "Proof of Transaction" consensus debate - 10 million TAU 12 months
« Reply #43 about: November 17, 2018, 08:14:34 AM »
I love the feedback on keeping us focused and simple as basic coin settlement layer.

A key decision is made and very bold. "reduce the block size to 10kb" aims to support massive decentralized mobile nodes mining.
Peer to peer communication among millions of mobile devices require smaller block size. This is to increase data availability, resulting to provide high security. we believe security is upmost importance, given the recent BCH 51% attack show. We adjust our spirit to "light and secure". this puts us in a very unique position comparing to other coins increasing block size, which will cause centralization, due to less nodes have full capture of blocks on time. The reason for 10kb is average ethereum block is 50kb. As an experimental currency, we want to start with high security, 10kb makes us look not sexy, but 10kb blocks size in a pure mobile environment is very cool.
what is your feedback?
iMorpheus
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Offline zityx23

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Re: "Proof of Transaction" consensus debate - 10 million TAU 12 months
« Reply #44 about: November 18, 2018, 03:26:14 PM »
I love the feedback on keeping us focused and simple as basic coin settlement layer.

A key decision is made and very bold. "reduce the block size to 10kb" aims to support massive decentralized mobile nodes mining.
Peer to peer communication among millions of mobile devices require smaller block size. This is to increase data availability, resulting to provide high security. we believe security is upmost importance, given the recent BCH 51% attack show. We adjust our spirit to "light and secure". this puts us in a very unique position comparing to other coins increasing block size, which will cause centralization, due to less nodes have full capture of blocks on time. The reason for 10kb is average ethereum block is 50kb. As an experimental currency, we want to start with high security, 10kb makes us look not sexy, but 10kb blocks size in a pure mobile environment is very cool.
what is your feedback?

I sure got a lot of questions when an idea is added and I love discussing with it. Ethereum's average block size is adjusted by the miners themselves and current average block size is about 17kb only. Highest average would be around 34kb-37kb according to data. A 10kb block size POT coin under mobile mining is not a bad idea after all. but what concerns me is what comes next after?

If there would be more transactions in a block than the block size can handle, it will  only slow the speed of transaction and increase the fee to send it. We have experienced it already with bitcoin. Segwit adjusted it and increases to 4mb. We can do this as well so as not to strangle the blockchain. Or we could imitate Monero's style of automatic adjustments in so that whenever there is a high traffic in the blockchain, it will automatically adjust its block size.

Still, our main concern is security, speed and easy accessibility to mining. I hope everyone will contribute to this concensus.

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